In this episode, I chat with Dr. Danielle Alexander (McGinnis) about advanced shadow work concepts, important shadow work definitions, how to discover and process unconscious material, archetypal theory, Jungian psychology, dream tending, astrology, our experiences with plant medicines, and the Transformation Collective. I'm on Youtube! Check out the Shadow Work Library Channel: https://bit.ly/shadowworkyoutube - - - Connect with me: INSTAGRAM - @jessicadepatie_ // https://www.instagram.com/jessicadepatie_/ EMAIL: jessica@posttraumaticgrowth.film WEBSITE: www.shadowmedia.group LOVE THE SHOW? Then youʻll really love: - Dark Night of Our Soul: www.posttraumaticgrowth.film - this is a documentary I'm producing that's a culmination of all of the shadow work-like practices I've learned through the world's leading experts in all things growth and evolution related. Other ways to support: SUBSCRIBE >> Apple Podcasts + Stitcher + Google Podcasts + Spotify LEAVE SPOTIFY/APPLE PODCASTS REVIEW >> :) SHARE >> Spread the word! Tell your family, friends, neighbors, pets…
Speaker 1: (00:00)
Hello everyone. And welcome to the shadow work library. On today's episode, I'm interviewing Dr. Danielle McGinnis, who, for those of you who've listened to previous episodes, you know, that she is like my in-house decoder of everything, dream related, symbolism, practical mythology. And she also studies young in psychology, which is this proper young in shadow work, which is a little different from what I do here on the show, which might be considered a more Eastern approach to shadow work. So Danielle, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: (00:29)
Oh, yay. I am so excited to be back on the show. Actually. I'm so excited because last time we talked, you know, I was kind of starting the journey that I'm on now, like kind of right. Um, taking the first steps into it. And now I'm like on the path when I turn around, I can't see where I started. So I'm like, okay, we're, we're in the thick of it. So it'll be interesting to see how just our conversations have evolved since the first time we talked.
Speaker 1: (01:04)
Oh, definitely. It's interesting. When you start doing this kind of work, it always feels like you're at the beginning because interviewing you the last time, it definitely didn't seem like it was the start for you. And I know you had your whole life of doing shadow work in your own way, intuiting how to do it. But now several years in it's a whole different game. And I'm sure when we hop on again in a couple of years, it's going to be like, oh, those cute little girls, what were they talking about For,
Speaker 2: (01:32)
So
Speaker 1: (01:34)
Right now, because you have been on the show before, would you just give us a brief introduction of who you are and what you do beyond what I just covered there?
Speaker 2: (01:41)
Yeah, so I, I guess the label that I give myself is integrative embodiment coach. So what I do with individuals, um, I had a very short career in physical therapy. Um, I worked in Western medicine and realized quite quickly that that was just really suffocating and constricting for my soul's contract in this incarnation. So I decided to pivot, um, and quote unquote retire from physical therapy practice after like a couple of years. So, um, you know, I was just feeling this call that like the body was important, but it just wasn't the work I was doing in that realm just wasn't for me in particular. And so, um, I started into somatic experiencing practitioner training. And so that to me has been a really beautiful bridge to use the nervous system and to use the organic processes that are moving through the body and combine that with now my formal training and progress in union and archetypal studies.
Speaker 2: (02:53)
And so what I'm trying to do is really create this bridge from this archetypical trans personal, um, symbolic mythical realm and help humans navigate the world and make it digestible and integrative and embodied really. So, um, we were saying before we hit record, it's like, I feel like sometimes I speak a different language and it's really hard to like decode some of this stuff that feels, um, out of the realm of language, honestly. So it's, I feel like part of my work also is just wrestling with what is like, what is being, what is influencing this moment? What is working through this client at this moment? Um, what is showing up in the dream and, and really trying to take the symbol and break it down in a way that doesn't reduce it or squash the soul out of it. So I guess that's a little brief intro into what I do
Speaker 1: (04:02)
When you're working with people and you're taking everything that you're learning. And now communicating that to others. Are you finding that there are certain types of personality traits or just ways of being that make it more challenging for people to understand some of these concepts and to embody these concepts in some kinds of people that are just really naturally inclined for this kind of work?
Speaker 2: (04:27)
Yeah. Um, that's an interesting question because I believe that anyone can do this work. Um, it's not for just the people who are, have openness in their personality trait and, you know, are into like the spiritual stuff. It's not just for those people. And I think that's where there's a responsibility on people who are, um, communicating about shadows, working with individuals with shadows, that they have to be creative with the way that they show up with people. I've found this to be true. And in my practice in particular, because there are people that have no idea what, like what certain myths and images and symbols are. And so it's my responsibility to be the decoder and not, and to translate it into a language that they understand. And I think that's the beautiful part of it is when I can be creative enough to meet someone where they are and see them for where they are not where they should be to do this work.
Speaker 2: (05:32)
It's, um, it's so awesome because you see, you see the, the soul start to like kind of open up and be like, oh, then waiting for someone to kind of help me understand this, because I feel like when you're doing this type of work, um, it activates this deeper knowing of truths that you knew to be true before you knew that they were true, but you didn't have language for it, or you didn't have a sensation of it consciously. So, um, with that, you know, I don't know if that answered your question, but I feel like I work with all kinds of people, all different ages of people ranging from 15 years old to 60. So, um, even if you're older than 60, you can still do this work. And I think it's just for the people who are seeking, um, a richer experience in this human experience.
Speaker 1: (06:35)
We'll talk more about symbols later and that speaks, that'll speak more to knowing certain truths before we know what they mean. So I'm glad we started off like that because I do want this to be a very foundational episode on shadow work. And so to create the solid foundation before we blast off into space, which often happens with you and I would you share with everyone listening, what shadow work is from a union perspective.
Speaker 2: (07:06)
So from, so it's interesting because I think in the youngian world, there's, there's certain like, uh, pockets where it can get really dogmatic right. And really protective and like, um, so that exists even in the young and world. So I think the thing that is most important for me as I attempt and try my best to communicate about these amazing, um, principles and experiences and concepts that young created, um, and put language to is that I don't want to, um, just smash them into a mental idea. So the shadow, I believe from a young end perspective is all of the content that is in the unconscious, in which you are not conscious of. So it's not just a certain thing. Um, I think it can be all of the things can be shadows, but how, I guess pop culture has, um, position the shadow is it's, it's the thing in which it's the material, the unconscious material that is right below ego consciousness.
Speaker 2: (08:34)
It's closest to what you do know. It's like right on the edge of what you do know, but it's sitting right under the surface and it's influencing the way that your personality navigates the world unconsciously might be. It might be a little complicated. I, I, I'm probably gonna come back to this, but I think that the psyche is a democracy and like everything it's inclusive, right. So we don't want to like just sex, like section out things that are so there's so much to them that we have no idea. So we'll just kind of keep some space for the shadow to be all the unknown. But, um, yeah, I think that's a kind of simplified way to say it's the thing. Um, it's the threshold beyond the ego when the ego starts to enter into unknown territory,
Speaker 1: (09:31)
That that makes complete sense. It works really well with the Eastern approach that I take on shadow work, which is that shadows are gifts. And it's easier to describe a shadow as a negative thing, but when you're vibing high, that same unconscious material trends mutes into a really beautiful expression, it's just where are we at? Right. So I'm going to challenge you with another definition. I know these are super challenging, um, because it's like a whole lifetime of work boiled into maybe a couple of sentences, but how would you explain unconscious the unconscious? Because we're going to say that a lot throughout this.
Speaker 2: (10:12)
Well, I would say it is all of the, all of the material experience, energy, um, everything that sits beyond the known.
Speaker 1: (10:32)
And one more definition for word that I know you're going to say a lot is material. So often when we think about material, it's like, matter like physical matter. Now we could dive into that word because matter really means something completely different than when we think it means we won't go down that route. But what do you mean by the material?
Speaker 2: (10:54)
Um, just the psychic, I guess again, it can be images, symbols. Um, I think the, the, the best way to kind of look at what material quote unquote that I work with through a somatic experiencing perspective, they have a model called used using side them. And that stands for sensation, image, behavior, affect meaning emotion and meaning. And so if you put those things together, um, they can, they can exist separately. So you can have, um, sensations that are material, um, that float around and be unknown. You can have images that float around or they can be coupled together. So I like the way that they break that out and somatic experiencing because, um, it's kind of like the gestalt of, of what we're working with, I guess.
Speaker 1: (11:57)
Yeah. Yeah. And from an intuitive perspective, we would see that as the, as audibly, like sounds or words that you quote unquote, hear in your intuitive senses, the intuitive visions that you get, the sensational feelings, and then that just knowing of like, it's not a sound, it's not an image. It's not a feeling it's just, oh, I just know something that's so cool. I love how these worlds are colliding. So one of the challenges with shadow work that I find is that it can be very conceptual. That is one of the downfalls of having a podcast is that we don't have human human interaction. It's only a one-way conversation. So obviously the material that we're putting out there is very mental. So how do you help people bring shadow, work out of this mental mind concept and more into the body so they can embody this in, in life and in their souls?
Speaker 2: (13:00)
I think it's, um, somewhat, because I think I, I like to at least start where people are, right? So most people aren't super embodied to be honest, right? Like most people are more comfortable up in this kind of conceptual space. And so if we can kind of give a map of kind of how the psyche is laid out and constructed and then see how their personal and subjective experience is laying onto that map or that map is, um, laying on to them, then I think it helps people really understand, not just from a mental level, but they start to get more safety. So the safety first resides in, in the mind. And I think that's just a product of our culture. Right. And then as we create safety. So I think about it as like, okay, so you're about to go on this journey and you need a map to go on the journey, but then you have to orient to your environment and like, okay, so where am I at right now?
Speaker 2: (14:15)
Right. Where am I at on this map? And then as you start to take steps on the journey, it's like you continually orient and that by orienting constantly, you're checking in with, how is your body perceiving this experience, the journey of working with the shadow, because they're not separate, right? Like, just because you have the map doesn't mean that you're not experiencing and feeling and all of that along the way. So recognizing that we aren't separate from what's happening within us. Um, I think that's where we start. Um, as our, um, when we're younger, we start, you know, use like God images. That's a, that's an example of kind of transpersonal material, right? First when you're doing this work, the God image starts as a God outside of you up in the sky, up in heaven, right? Because that's a safer kind of way to interact with quote, unquote God.
Speaker 2: (15:19)
But as you start to do work with symbols in the shadow, in different, um, material internally, that image that was once outside of you starts to come in and you realize that you're not separate from that. You're connected to that in some way. And so young said constantly that the body and the psyche are not separate, they're on the spectrum. Um, and we live on this spectrum from the archetypes to the instincts, so the body to the spiritual, um, material. So, um, yeah, creating a map really. And as we were kind of chatting before, I think that the first place to start is getting an awareness of, well, what is the thing that's going to be processing the shadow, the shadows, the unconscious, it's your ego. Like your sense of I in the world is kind of like the quote unquote, you are here on the map.
Speaker 2: (16:21)
So your sense of, I, um, it's interesting, cause not a lot of people know that your ego has two functions. It has kind of two sides to it on one side, um, it's, you know, wanting to become more conscious, but on the other side, it's wanting to protect, um, from all of the things that would make it less conscious. So it's like kind of like one it's facing one way, but also has a kind of eye towards the other way to looking at the shadow. So when shadow material comes up, the ego's like, Nope, you will not enter because it's threatening. And I think that's an important part of shadow work is realizing that as you're becoming more conscious of the shadow and unconscious material, you're going to regress a little bit. You're going to act in ways, feel things that are uncomfortable. It's technically a regression. It might be in Western psychology, a symptom, but those symptoms are the entryway into greater consciousness. So we have to be willing to look at how your sense of I is, um, is I guess, just oriented to the material itself. And that helps me somatically if the ego very defensive, if it has like, you know, a lot of protection and guards up, then I have to titrate this unconscious material. Meaning slowly like little bits of material. It's not like I can't tell someone, you know, I'm trying to think of another shadow, but like, um,
Speaker 1: (18:12)
The perfection, you're
Speaker 2: (18:13)
Just, yeah, like, um, when you're, when you're, uh, addicted to having the perfect body, right. Well, what you're feeling is disgust for yourself. Like you can't just can involve and like tell somebody like, well, this is the truth, right? You can't sometimes the mirror, like can't be that, um, it needs to be gentle, right? Because if you go in and you're like, well, this is the truth. The ego sometimes is like, Nope, too much. And it feels like it's going to get flooded by the truth. And so it's just like, it's a slow process of small, like little nuggets, right? So, um, you know, when you had always gone to the gym, you know, seven days a week and never took a day off, and then you S you took one day off what CA what entered into that space. That's doing shadow work in a titrated way, right? Because what came up because you felt disgusting and repulsive, and you felt this impulse to go anyway, that's all those like symptoms and things that pop up. That's the doorway into, um, not only working with what's happening in the nervous system, but also that's, that's the doorway into integration because it's like, well, thank God that, you know, that most people aren't even aware of what happens in that space. So that was very, long-winded,
Speaker 1: (19:48)
It's all really important information. And it really like, it's so good to point out to do this little bits at a time, because it does take patience. And it does take gentleness, uh, the shadow work method that I subscribed to has a, I don't know, you could call it like an approach, like a four tiered, no, not tiered, a four pillared approach. You know, it all happens at the same time. So you need to be patient with yourself. You need to be gentle on yourself and you need to be open to inquiry. The, the curiosity, and then the art of contemplation also falls into place there too, where it's, you don't concentrate on your shadows. That's not how this stuff works. You don't get out, um, a piece of paper and say, this is my shadow, and this is how I'm going to fix it.
Speaker 1: (20:37)
And you can do that with story work, which Jen talks about what she's going to be on the show after you. Um, but when you're doing this work and you're just wanting to get it done, because you don't have the patience, you're hard on yourself and all the other things, it just, that's how things can get a lot darker than lighter in a way that doesn't need to happen. And I think that that's a huge reason why it takes me so freaking long to put these shadow work episodes together. My solo shows because I'm actively doing the work as I go through it. And I go through a thing literally after every single show that I put together, um, when I'm exploring and researching that shadow aspect before I'm giving, getting into the gift states, I'm not in a great place. I am regressing. My husband's like, oh, you're doing another shadow work episode.
Speaker 1: (21:21)
Or like, we're going to do a thing. Now it's the reality of this work, but I there's no regrets once you get on the other side of it. It just, it does take patience and little bits at a time. So backing up a little bit. Um, I love that distinction of the dual function of the ego, having those two sites is we always hear about that other side, that the ego is here to keep you safe and small and the same. And I, it just makes sense that this thing that's so important to us also has a higher function, a gift function that is here to help us through this path. So, um, if we were to get into like backing up even further about that idea of, uh, disembodiment, or like not being embodied, what are some indications that for the people that are listening, that they may not be embodied or, or disassociated from their bodies,
Speaker 2: (22:15)
You know, that shows up in so many different ways, like dissociation lies on a spectrum, right? So dissociation can lie in, you know, just this generalized, um, kind of spaciness or like, um, you know, even going into daydream and fantasy can be a form of dissociation. Right. Um, and so I don't want to like demonize it because sometimes dissociation is, um, extremely protective because it helps the ego from not being overwhelmed, but all the way on the other side of that spectrum is, you know, like full blown out, you have separate personalities. Right. So, um, I think that decision body, like we're all embodied, like, let's just put that out there. Like we're all embodied. It's just, um, are we conscious of how, how we're moving through the world in our bodies? Um, and so, yeah, just to clarify that, but I think the, the biggest thing with doing shadow work and you kind of brought it up is like, it's not you setting and writing on a piece of paper.
Speaker 2: (23:30)
Like, this is my shadow. Like when you're doing shadow work, you're slowly starting to create a compacity in your body to tolerate the things you cannot control about yourself and about other people. And that's a really essential part of being in the body is because if you were always consumed by the emotions that are attached to this unconscious material, there's no way that you can move through the world. And you're always going to be reacting and not responding. Right. You're always going to have, you're going to be in this like, kind of, um, chronic fight or flight space, or if you live in that, um, higher arousal fight or flight space, because there's like things like bumping at the bottom, they're like, oh, shadows wanting to enter. And you're like, no, I can't, I can't feel anything in my body. What happens is if the longer we kind of chronically live in fight or flight, what exists above that is freeze.
Speaker 2: (24:45)
So dissociation. And so dissociation is actually, um, has a lot of energy into it because it takes a lot of energy to remain in that state, because if you're in fight or flight from like, uh, like a norm, like a, just a normal threat, right. You see a snake on the road and you're like, oh, I gotta get out of here. Like, if you actually get out of there, your body's going to come back into regulation on its own because our bodies are so wise in that way. But I think what happens when we're working with trauma and a lot of these complex inner material is that we got stuck in fight or flight. And we like live there, like we needed to regulate ourselves, but could not. And we didn't have, um, parents, teachers, people around us to help us come back into regulation.
Speaker 2: (25:47)
And so the option for the body, because the body is worried about survival is to go into dissociation. So now anything that's associated with those fight or flight states becomes threatening and dangerous. And I think the, maybe one of the most popular symptoms of that is just a generalized anxiety of about life. And I would say that's the invitation to get into shadow work, right. Because typically, or just depressive states, right. Depressive states, I think are just, um, invitations to working on energy. That's been stuck in the body too. Um, yeah. So I don't know, again, long-winded answer to your question.
Speaker 1: (26:37)
Um, you said something really cool the other day on a call that we had that these there's something that activates, like they, maybe we were talking about shadows. I don't exactly remember what the they was, but they activate something in us to wake us up. And the S and it's like, love is bringing us into these experiences that we may deem as negative. I think you had mentioned as an example, the, like an abusive relationship or something like love is sometimes bringing us into these things so that we can experience something to wake us up. Is that kind of relate to what you're talking about here?
Speaker 2: (27:18)
Yeah. So, um, the kind of like the archetypal arrows, like a LA like capital L love, I guess there's a chaos in that energy. Right. And when that chaos comes into our world, whether that's in an actual relationship or whether that's bumping into something that, um, just doesn't serve us anymore, like, there's so many different ways where we, we bump into things where we like, kind of hit walls, right? Like, I think that it's in the myth of psyche and arrows. I mean, it's like a classic myth is they're trying to couple in psyche is soul. And so love is always trying to enter into soul and be embodied, but it's chaotic, it's chaotic energy. And what that chaotic energy does is it lights, fires, it catalyzes things, it moves energy. And for a lot of people, like, that's just so overwhelming. Right? And like, I think it takes a lot of devotion and discipline to trying to relate to that chaotic energy, to really be open to saying like, this is a gift for me, or this is for me.
Speaker 2: (28:37)
Right. Because if, if that person is over identified with, or, or completely unaware of, you know, their ego functions, they're gonna look at everything that love is transforming as a problem, because love often requires a lot of death and destruction of old form. And when you're doing shadow work, it's like, well, get ready because parts of you are going to die. Right. But like that, I like the Phoenix myth, right. Because it's like, well, it dies to be reborn. Right. You go into unconsciousness and to death to be reborn, to become more conscious. So if that's always part of the process and you know that this is a cycle in life is a cycle like that. Um, I dunno, it's really powerful. It's really powerful because it's like, oh, now I can, um, engage the world in a way where even the problems become the invitations always.
Speaker 2: (29:50)
And I mean, that takes a lot of work to get there. And it, I'm sure people who are in like rock bottom experiences are like, you. Right. But like, I've been there and it sucks, but I don't think that I would change any part of any death or rock bottom or, um, depressive state, or anxious state that I've ever been in. Because I think what we're after is that sense of a likeness, right. And when we're disembodied and dissociated, that's not there. We don't feel that we feel a deadness. We feel apathy. We feel all of the states that are ultimately trying to wake us up. Right. We just need to find, I guess in Taoism, we need to find the, the middle way where we can kind of just hold the tension of being hyper alive and not being like disembodied spirits that fly off into the realm of the gods. But also don't be, you know, buried in the ground, barely breathing and being apathetic and depressed. So we need to find that middle way and realize that it's going to be up and down the whole way, but somatic work creates the capacity to experience more of the up and down. That's really what body work does.
Speaker 1: (31:18)
I want to get more into that somatic work in a second. Um, yeah, you do this work long enough and you realize the, the gifts and the adversity are all the same thing at the end. And that's such a beautiful thing to embrace, um, in the shadow work practice that I subscribed to, we have more or less a three-step process. Uh, there's a ton in this three-step process. You know, it's not like go to the fridge, open package, put a microwave, but it's this allowing accepting and embracing. And that is the path to creating a good relationship to your unconscious material to use the words that you use. And so, um, the process for allowing is allowing your mental mind to have enough insights, like just allowing yourself to be your shadow yourself, for lack of a better term, you know, allowing yourself to just see these negative patterns or these things that will have iron grip on your reality.
Speaker 1: (32:18)
And you do that enough and that's your only job. You don't need to change it just enough of those insights happen. And then you have this breakthrough and in this system, this breakthrough is, is related to that acceptance where then your behavior, like the pauses between when you would have that thought or, or go into yeah, like the recurring thought pattern, have that, um, impulse to do something you just don't want to do that pause gets bigger and bigger, and that acceptance creates some behavioral change, but it's still conscious, you know, it still takes this effort. And then you have enough of these breakthroughs that you finally like this kind of final state and final, I say, it's a fuzzy, final state, but this epiphany epiphany where you embrace this part of yourself and the embrace does not mean that it isn't a part of you anymore. It's it becomes a physicality. Like it becomes part of your body. And just by doing that, you allow your physical body to be more embodied with your psyche. That's kind of our process, um, in the young end process. Do you see similarities there?
Speaker 2: (33:26)
Yeah. I think like when you're working with, as you kind of progress into the shadow and allowing, right. You know, the questions that you could ask in that place, well, what am, what is my resistance here and how is that showing up? Right. A lot of times, um, people like the resistance actually is showing up in the body, but they don't have an awareness. Right. So a lot of times it's like, okay, so my heart rate's getting really high. And my chest is getting tight. Um, my hands are clenching. So we're like starting to recognize the resistance to the allowing. Right. Um, and then as we work through that, right, dip our toes into that resistance and come back out, it's almost as if now you have, um, one eye looking out orienting and the other eyes like looking in like, oh, I can see what's happening.
Speaker 2: (34:33)
Amazing. And what was formally, um, deemed by the ego as absolute just darkness and morality. Chaos now has a little bit more, um, differentiation, a little bit more form, a little bit more contour. And so it's easier to work with, right? And so we start to see there, the different forms and figures and, um, elements, um, emotions that are attached to the shadowy material. And I love you talked about, you know, personifying the shadow, um, giving the shadow, um, a person, a form of figure like who is this? That is, has its own personality. And in my unconscious, like, what is, what is that person? It might be someone in your life like a parent or old best friend or an ex-lover maybe it's that, but maybe it's something that's way deeper, right? It's a shamonic guide, a mentor, like maybe there's something internally that just was so a quote unquote, other or foreign that it like the ego just couldn't even digest it.
Speaker 2: (35:52)
And so when you start to personify these different forms of the shadow, then it's a relationship. That's the embracing that you're talking about is now you have a relationship with these different entities and beings and, um, people within your psyche. And that's really powerful because you recognize because sometimes shadow work feels lonely, right? Like you feel kind of isolated and alone. And when you start to get to this phase of when, when all this material has a little bit more form, I think the loneliness comes when we're completely split off from the unconscious. The unconscious can be a dangerous place, right. Being consumed and like swallowed into it is dread terror, horror. Like it's terrifying, but also it's a place that you can be deeply held in. It is the relationship to it that determines all of that. So like the, the ego is going to be less threatened. If it is creating a relationship with a known entity, rather than this just like dark, chaotic form, that's just like kind of existing there behind the scenes. So I don't know if that relates, but it feels like it does.
Speaker 1: (37:22)
It reminds me of this experience that I had way before I knew anything about shadow work. And I was just getting to know myself in my mid twenties. And so, you know, I had a very promiscuous, uh, prior experience to this, like basically early teenage years up until that point. And it was a part of myself that I had compartmentalized. And I was like, that's not really a part of me, but every once in a while, I'll come out and like, and I'd have that huge shame feeling right after, like, what was I doing? And I went to a workshop and this guy talks about, talked about how he had something similar and he named it, his demons. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. He was kind of talking about what you're talking about here, where like, he just gave it a name and that was it.
Speaker 1: (38:11)
You know? And, and just by giving it a name and giving it a form, it was like a version of, I created a version of myself that looked a certain way, that acted a certain way. And just by allowing that demons let, for lack of a better word here to just exist, to truly exist, stop shoving her in the closet as if she doesn't exist just by having her there. That's when my intuitive process just started kicking in. And eventually I was able to be like, what, why are you here? What gifts do you bring? And I realized that the demons let wasn't here to bring me into these situations with other men that I regretted. It was like showing me that I, um, like she was also really creative and really spontaneous and craved adventure and all these other really amazing things that I valued about myself, but I was too busy to honor, you know, and I, and so her negative manifestation, her reactive manifestation from being suppressed, what just came out like in this way. And so that's how I started to personify some of my material without really knowing what I was doing. Um, I would love to dive deeper into this personification of some material and how we can make it more digestible for our systems. So like, could you take me through maybe a role-play of how you would work with somebody who, um, let's, let's say what would be a good shadow? We do this work all the time and it is hard to like, just come up with something. So,
Speaker 2: (39:40)
Um, a lot of times in relationships like re relationships, um, like projections and relationships, often reveal shadows and the anxiety of the ego. Right? So something that had come up recently with one of my clients was, um, she was in a relationship she's in a relationship and that relationship is actually going really well. Right. And you would think that that's a great thing, but in almost every relationship she's ever been in, when things go well, bad things happen. And that's the narrative, that's the emote that the anxiety and the body, the ego has kind of clung onto that. Right. And so now that she's in this relationship, um, she's like just waiting for the next shoe to drop. Right. And that causes a lot of lack of presence, anxiety, um, insecurity. There's a lot of things that come up, um, in that what we came to find right, is like this, this inner Kyle was just like carrying all of this, like inability to navigate relationships.
Speaker 2: (40:53)
And so by turning towards that inner child and being a compassionate understanding witness of her experience. Cause it was interesting because my client was like, yes, and I always do this. I always sat self-sabotage my relationships. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Like, that's a perfect example of the ego. Right. Being like, kind of over identified with like the ego being the only thing. And it's like, I don't think that you're actually doing that. I think that there's parts of you that are influencing and causing you to behave in self-sabotaging ways that are actually trying to wake you up so that you don't do that. Right. And so it wasn't, it was turning towards this little young part of herself and um, said it was, it was like really, like, she was just like walking in one direction with her partner and the other, the inner child was like just abandoned.
Speaker 2: (41:56)
And I was like, I just felt, um, like, I don't think that's part of doing shadow work too. And being a coach and a practitioner of this work is that you need to advocate for the lost and split off parts. Because like, when I start to sense that there's like the, uh, one sidedness, right. The ego is, is moving in one direction, but it's like not including other parts. That's my job to like step in and start to call out that rigid ego and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, wait, I think that we're missing something here. And that's a scary process, right? Because it, it disrupts the known and the, the typical pattern. Um, I wanted to read you something that young had written in, uh, the collected works nine. Uh, he said in the realm of consciousness, we are our own masters.
Speaker 2: (42:54)
But if we step through the door of the shadow, we discover with, with terror that we are the objects of unseen factors. And I think that that really, um, that really informs us of like, we, aren't the only thing that are like barge here are I R a personalities? Like, there's, there's more here, that's influencing the ego. And I've described the ego before as like, um, if you had this psychic house, right? Like if psyche is a house, ego is like the doorman to the house. Like it's opening the door and closing the door, which are quote unquote boundaries who collective material, social expectations and norms. But also the back door is like the emotions and the shadow material and the dreams and all of the unprocessed stuff. But when I'm telling my clients that I think it's most important that you can go doesn't own the house, right? The ego is the doorman of the house. It is the thing that allows whatever's in the house to be manifest and played out. But the landlord of the house is whatever you want to call it. Uh, in the union world is called the self, the capital S self, um, when people call it God universe, divine master. So that's an important part is like to relativize the ego to the greater force. That's in charge of all of this. Geez.
Speaker 1: (44:33)
That's really powerful. S uh, do you ever get the existential willies when you study this stuff? Sometimes?
Speaker 2: (44:42)
Oh, a hundred percent. Uh, I think when I did our Diomede ceremony in January, it was a literal, it was a playing out of all of the existential dread and terror that existed within my safety and passed out and dissociated from it, you know? Um, so yeah, for sure. I think it hits me in waves, but I'm curious, you know, you mentioned the word, curiosity am curious, but I think if I find that things are, um, starting to pull me out of my body, um, that's where I start to like, kind of, um, grabbed the reins a little bit and start to like, just get back, like my feet on the ground and just like, come back to a sense of safety. Because like, if you just, and, and volunteer this stuff, you can be devoured and that's scary. No, um, yes, just slowly taking steps towards existential dread
Speaker 1: (45:53)
Fun. Yeah. The existential willies are so weird. Um, I get them often when I'm doing something really like normal, like, uh, but also, yeah, triggering, like being in a Walmart, it happens to me all the time. I'm like under their fluorescence, everybody's like busy, you're walking around and all this packaging and everything, and like, what is going on? And I start to feel like my arms and legs are looking really weird right now. You know, my consciousness is coming through my two eyeballs and I'm like, it's such a weird thing to explain, but I think, you know what I'm talking about, where I'm all of a sudden, I'm like, I need to get grounded because I feel like if I keep, if I indulge in this feeling, I might just keep going. And I don't know if that's possible or not, but I used to get that feeling when I was young and I trained myself out of it. And I, I think that was a poor decision to train myself out of it. Cause it was, uh, it was calling me to look at these parts of myself, but I remember being 10 years old in the backseat of a car with my parents and my friends sitting next to me and just being like, what is this? This world is so weird. I'm a human, am I an alien? It just got funky. And then I was like, no, I can't have this itchy feeling anymore. This cosmically itchy,
Speaker 2: (47:09)
This is a perfect example. Right. Because let's think of the ancient human being that's like in this world, it's like, what the is this? Right. And like that, like that period of time, like our consciousness was not what it is. Now we have ask the question why, right. Our consciousness ask, develop, follow rate, all of that existential stuff. Right. So in the past, in a lot of tribal cultures, there's, what's called participation mystique, right? It's it's you being, um, kind of consumed and possessed by the archetypes and they would play it out through, they would, you know, lay it out through rituals and can'ts and things like that. But they were literally in the realm of the gods. Right. And so as consciousness has developed, I think we've just gone. So, I mean, you can say it's a thousands of years, but that's really not a lot of time again, that, that gives me the least.
Speaker 2: (48:18)
Um, but you know, I think we've gone so far in the mental direction because we just didn't know what was happening or how to be in this instinctual body. Like, I don't think that we realize how close we are to animals. Right. And that's part of shadow work too, is getting in touch with that animalistic organism that is within right within the nervous system. And so I think we've, we consider ourselves separate from that, but it's like, well, no, that plays itself out immensely in our day to day. And so I think we've created a lot of these kind of concepts and ideas because in past history and ancient cultures ideas, weren't a thing you were just participating in the energy and now we've, we've digested that and made it an idea. And we've gone too far, I think personally in the realm of ideas and concepts that we, we are disconnected from all these things are moving in us. So I think that like those, that the perfect example of like, oh, this freaks me out. Right. Like, of course. Right. But it's not until you, um, get to a certain level where you're like, oh, I can, I can be with this. Like, it gets a little bit safer. Right. And that's basically consciousness of all throughout humanity.
Speaker 1: (49:54)
Cool. I, haven't learned more about myself then in the realm of understanding permaculture and nature and how systems really work together and how, like you were saying, we're so removed from that reality, from that truth of how we're super animalistic. And when we think about the instincts of animals, just watching my, my dog, like act like a Wolf, even though he's never been a wild animal before. It's so cool to consider that, you know, when we start getting into some, some symbolism and some of the dream stuff that I would love to touch on, it's like, we all have this humanistic animalistic instinct to call in these symbols that we have never known personally, but are in our species as things that we should pay attention to.
Speaker 2: (50:46)
Yeah. And I think that, that, that is what, that is what we lack divine conscience is comprised of all of the instincts, right. That have existed throughout humanity that have been digested, uh, that have been created into symbols. Right. And they kind of go back into the unconscious, right. That those are the things that move cries the dream. Well, that's fascinating. Right. Um, you know, I think, I think that spectrum, that young uses for unconscious material ranging from archetype to instinct is really helpful. You kind of be with, because it's, you know, you can think of spirit matter, archetyped in sync, mind, body. So like the image and symbol kind of lies on that spectrum of both of those, right. And as humans, what we do to make that material more digestible, whether it's super instinctual or super Arbor, archetypal is we use metaphor and story and myths. And that's the way that we digest that, whatever it is come forward.
Speaker 1: (52:13)
Um, I want to back up, I think this is the worst segue ever, but I wanted to touch on something that, um, a word you use often is effect effect. And I want to start encouraging people to use more of this language because the English language in the way that we've been taught at have a lot of limitations. And there's some really killer words in there that say a lot once we know what they mean. So could you explain a little bit about affect and like how that works into shadow work?
Speaker 2: (52:44)
Yeah. So I thought in itself, I think of it more on it's just emotion, energetically charged emotion. Right. And so then we can talk about the difference between emotion and feeling, right. Feeling is emotion that has consciousness to it. Like it's been experienced consciously processed and like, you there's like a determination attached to it. Like I am feeling this emotion just kind of hits you. Right. Effect kind of just hits you so affect. Is, is that organic material coming up from the depths? That's how I think of it. Um, and like I said, prior to this, like images can archetypes can have these have an effect there, you can think of them almost like, you know, bubbles of energy and in the middle of the bubble is the, is the image and the arc. Right. But the bubble is like the caring, this light energy, it's like a emotional tone to it. And like throwing a water balloon at the ego and the water [inaudible] or is it going to explode? And to me, that's kind of, I think,
Speaker 1: (54:03)
Okay, so you would use it in the place of saying is charged with emotions. So like this experience is having an effect on you. Is that how you would use that or
Speaker 2: (54:18)
Not necessarily, right. It's not like effect effect. Um, I'm not great with,
Speaker 1: (54:24)
Yeah. I don't know the difference between those two, so we can
Speaker 2: (54:27)
Read out with language. Um, so perfect in itself is just, just like the term, right. It's, it's similar to emotion, but I think that there's something about emotion that we have, um, what Western psychology has. Like, like, I think that there's something a little bit, um, raw and organic about offset emotion has this, like, I think we have this preconceived idea of emotion as like just a word, like sad. Yeah. Right. But like an effect I think is like dad was thinking capital ends.
Speaker 1: (55:17)
That does make sense. I get where you're going with that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: (55:20)
It's kind of like, there's energy behind it. Right. It's not anger. It's anger with a capital a um, so yeah, again, I feel like I'm like decoding and speaking in different languages. Frustrating, but
Speaker 1: (55:34)
So it's, it's important. I like, I like the way you talk and I just want to understand more of why, you know, um, so let's go into dreamland, let's blow off into space here, how you had mentioned, um, we talked about symbolism being in your dreams. We had actually talked about this in the first podcast that we did together, but I know that you've been working more with dream tending now and have a different, um, a more refined interpretation of dream tending and all of that. Uh, where do you want to start with that? I, I don't even know where to start with it. I think I'll let you take the word.
Speaker 2: (56:09)
Um, I think the important thing is, um, young on this product concept, like shadow could be a concept, but he had this theory of Hom practice and complexes are, um, emotionally toned, um, images that exist within the psyche and at the core of each complex is an archetypal image. Right? So the most common ones are like mother and father on flexes. Right. Um, so at the center of your complex is the image of depending on your personal experience with it, the great mother or the terrible mother, maybe a little bit of both. Right. And so young believed that, um, the dream, the complex up in dreams through images and the dreams that we have that are effectively honed are really, really important because it is material that is seeking to be integrated in the psyche. And so say we have a dream of me, right?
Speaker 2: (57:39)
Like that's a common dream symbol. You know, the snake has associations to the deep instinct realms of the body and the psyche. And so, um, we can look at the symbols and the images that show up in the dream, and then we can match that with personal associations. And, oh, so when you, um, when you see the S the way I like to do dream pending, it's like kind of put the person in the dream, right. So as you're experiencing the stream and you see the snake, you're interacting with the stake in the dream, what is your experience like? What comes up? What is the spontaneous creation of feelings, images, sensations, like what comes up when you see the snake? So then you combine the personal with the archetypal. And when you do that, when your dream tending, it creates this really rich experience of what this image is trying to communicate.
Speaker 2: (58:44)
The dream is compensating. So let's say maybe that dream showed up or somebody who actually with PQ me, all right. Cause I kind of snake dreams. Right. And so before we did the diamond ceremony, I had this crazy dream where I was like jumping through these like jungle canyons. And I like am like shimming across this like rock wall. And beneath me was such a beautiful thing, water. And like from the gaps of the water came with like massive snake. And I was terrified. I was so terrified. It was just like one of those dreams that just like any hits your bones, it's like so terrifying. And you know, if we look at that, that dream at that time now reflecting back on what was happening, what happened and the dynamic experience, it was, it was almost like, you know, be prepared. You're going to be in very deep sematic territory, instinctual territory. And I'll be damned if that wasn't what happened. That's what happened to my experience. But it was like this, it almost felt like this warning dream, like be careful of where you're traversing because there's some deep dangerous.
Speaker 2: (01:00:13)
So, um, it actually, that dream itself really changed my intention working with plant medicine because it gave me, um, a deep reverence for the medicine itself before. I, I don't know. I think I was going in with this mindset of like being respectful to the sacred element of it. But after that dream in particular, I was like, I I'm like kneeling through the ground of what, what this energy, what kind of energy comes up. So these symbols have so much power in them. And I think they carry not only, um, warnings right for us, but I think they carry compensations. So if we're living completely cut off from our body, maybe you get a snake dream to indicate that you need to go in through the body or material from the body is managed. It's going to manifest itself. It is manifesting itself. Something of that nature. It just depends on the person that a good launch pad for dreams
Speaker 1: (01:01:20)
Really so much to talk about here. One of the first things that comes up is this terror of God. And this is one of these concepts that I never understood until I started, um, interacting with plant medicines and sitting with powerful plant medicines intentionally. And I had heard from some people that are like truly spiritual in, in their religious beliefs, uh, just great soul connected humans. And they would speak about feeling the sense of terror towards the greatness of God. And like, you know, my little self, my small self was like, well, then you don't really know God, you know, because God is all loving. And you know, the universe is here for us and I don't understand the word terror until I had that similar experience to you where I was like, oh, it's just so great. It's so powerful. It's so sacred that I can only be on my knees at this moment and, and have faith that everything is going to be okay.
Speaker 1: (01:02:18)
One of other things that pops up is this. I don't have snake dreams, but I often have shark dreams. And so something coming up from the depths seems very similar. Like there's a whole world, there's a whole underworld. And there's like this creature that's coming up. And in my dreams only I am seeing this creature. I'm often surrounded by people and they don't see it. And this was actually, I wanted to cover that one day when I reached out to you, I was like, Danielle, I need to figure this out. And then I just liked it in. Well, what would be your interpretation of that? It's a common dream that I have on a boat at the edge. I see the shark. I'm like, hello, does anybody else see this? It is like coming for me, coming for everybody. But everyone else was like, well, and everything's fine. What's your interpretation of that?
Speaker 2: (01:03:03)
Well, my first question would be, well, what is your, just when you are in that experience, right? Like what do you think of sharks? What do you think of that shark in particular? Like, what is your attitude towards the shark? What is your feeling about the sharp?
Speaker 1: (01:03:20)
So I'm going back there. It would be often I'm warning people. Like there's something really dangerous coming, but nobody can see it. And so then there's this perplexed feeling that I have of like, is this even real? Or am I imagining the shark coming? That's my feeling.
Speaker 2: (01:03:42)
Yeah. So it's interesting that I wrote down the word doubt. Maybe doubt of like what this is. Right. Am I, am I the crazy one? Right. Um, so, you know, you're where are you in the ocean? In the dream. Yep. Yeah. And so the ocean is a really powerful symbol of the unconscious and the vast, just put a post on this, on Instagram about like the vast, um, depths and mystery of the waters. Right. Um, the water in the ocean water, um, it's just very symbolic of how the unconscious works. Right? It's sometimes it can be like very chill and like, like cool and beautiful. And sometimes it's just rapping and intense and that is the unconscious. Um, and so you calm this animal. So if we think of shark, huge dark, they're very bean, pent, um, creatures. Right. And they can perverse those unconscious territories.
Speaker 2: (01:04:45)
So, well, right there, they can be predators on, on one side, but they also contribute deeply to the ecosystem of the ocean. Um, so they're really important. Um, so, you know, in dream world, we can look at that as, as a symbol of the capital S self, the kind of the God image with, within whether it's the psyche of you and, or the collective unconscious. Right. You're surrounded by people. And I mean, that's so symbolic of what's happening in the world right now. Right? So there's so much, um, this potentially dangerous and destructive energy, that's kind of swirling around beneath us in the world. And it's people like you, I think that can see it. And that, you know, I think depending the attitude you have towards the shark right, is the attitude that the sharks are going to take towards you. Right. And so if you, you know, have faith that, that animal is, you know, there for a reason to inform you of something from the great waters of the unconscious that you need to communicate to others around you.
Speaker 2: (01:06:07)
Right. But if you start to doubt the existence of the vanity of that breacher of that symbol, I mean, I think that's where the symbol start to, um, be a little bit destructive for our own individual. Um, because we start to doubt, um, beak, the sense, or we start to kind of rationalize it and we're like, oh, it would make sense if it was just telling you this. And then we just, don't, we're not open to, you know, Bruce within the dream. But I think that that's a really powerful dream. You know, another question I really love to ask my clients when doing dream tending is like, okay. So if, if that symbol had a home in your body, where would it be? Um, where, where would that symbol live? Where would your shark live in your body?
Speaker 1: (01:07:05)
It's bouncing between my mind and my gut. It's like both places.
Speaker 2: (01:07:13)
Yeah. So that's interesting, right? Because like, those are places of deep wisdom, both of them,
Speaker 1: (01:07:21)
Oh man, you're blowing my mind here. That word doubt that you intuited there is incredible because in my, um, gene he's profile the sphere of my purpose, which would in this system be the essence of your capital S self. The shadow is literally doubt. So in my aloneness, that is my place that I go when I'm, you know, vibe and low and like no faith in, or very little faith in, in, in my spirituality. And, um, that translates into that inquiry that you're talking about, like the curiosity of like no definite answer. It's not an answer. It's an exploration, like a never any exploration. I think that's a great interpretation of that dream. It, that feels super real. Um, I often feel like I'm taking crazy pills and I think that's natural, this kind of work, you know, like anybody seeing that kind of feeling.
Speaker 2: (01:08:17)
Yeah. And young was very, um, going back to the word, like sacred or reference seemed to like kind of fit your, the, he was like adamant, like, you know, actively working with dreams is important, but like when you don't have another person to be your anchor or to hold you, it can be very overwhelming and consuming. So like, I always encourage clients who either like dialogue with the dream or we'll do it during the session, but always to like kind of combat, like we'll check in about it because it's not like, especially when you're working with a symbol, like a shark, right? Like, so such a powerful energy. So like when you're, you know, ways that you can bring that nimble and digest it into your everyday so that the doubt kind of dissolves is to work with it. So you can dialogue with the shark and ask the shark.
Speaker 2: (01:09:17)
Why, why is it here? Why can no one else see you? And I can see you, right? You could something that I've been just really playing with and enjoying frankly, is, um, doing watercolor paintings of the feeling of the dream, not the symbol itself, but it's the symbol had a fee like a, an energy to it. Like how would that show up? And watercolors are, you know, they're kind of like emotions. They like bleed into each other. That's not linear like pencils, you know, like water color is very expressive and helps kind of bring that symbol into a digestible place. So those would be the suggestions of bringing that, that doubt into a plate of, well, you don't doubt when you are actually engaged with it. Right.
Speaker 1: (01:10:11)
Well, that's where the inquiry comes into play. Yeah, that makes sense. So I, yeah, I see that dialogue being really helpful with the symbols in your dreams, especially when, you know, we can talk about things like sharks and snakes and doves and deer, but then when somebody comes into your dream, like somebody, you know, I find that those dreams are more challenging for me to contemplate because there's that like emotional connection to the actual physical person on the earth plane. Um, so like, I'll give you a personal example when my dreams aren't some, no, they're all symbolic, but like when they feel more real like normal, um, I will often dream of this group back in high school, like the Filipino crew, the Pinoy crew, they were so nice. I remember like they were so, so nice. They were like some of my favorite people in the whole world.
Speaker 1: (01:11:06)
And they have such a special place in my heart, even though I didn't know them while it just like the vibes of their culture was really cool. And sometimes they'll show up as a group, like all of them in my dream. And they always like, feel like this really welcoming, nurturing presence. And then sometimes, um, I'll have people show up and people that I love, it's like real negative feeling, doing things that they wouldn't normally do. I don't have this kind of relationship. Like sometimes Jeff will show up in my dreams and he's just a Dick, you know? And I'm like, what does that mean? So how do, how do you help people work with that? Like people.
Speaker 2: (01:11:45)
Yeah. I think the kind of the first place I always go is make the assumption, right? And this can sometimes if you like kind of circle ambulate and move around the green, sometimes this isn't the case, but always going in with the assumption that the, each image in the dream is a part of you. Right. And so if Jeff shows up as a Dick in your dreams, then there's a part of your masculine energy that is like depth images. Harrying right. So there's parts of Jeff's personality that exists within you that are being a Dick to you. Does that make sense? So it's like, um, you know, like your masculine, there's something about this masculine energy within yourself that is, um, not being so nice to the ego. And he says that the dream ego is, is being that, um, you know, sometimes it can actually be who you're talking, an intuitive person who that, you know, you could be seeing into shadows of death truly.
Speaker 2: (01:12:59)
Right. Because, you know, it's, it's in parts weekend, I'm working with, um, a younger individual about 15 years old right now. So, you know, like really, um, bright and intuitive and intelligent young woman. And she, um, tell me dreams about when she was like eight years old, recurring nightmares. Um, and it's so evident to me that it's telling a story about her home life, about what's playing out between her parents, um, how those, how those energies personalities, uh, that are that cheap, maybe they're they're shadows of her parents. Right. So of her dad let's say right, um, that on the outside, he doesn't act like that, but you know, the greater you are, one-sided the greater the shadow. So she's intuiting his shadow. And what happens oftentimes with children is the material from unprocessed material from become what's called Infor jackets. And they become internalized within our psyche.
Speaker 2: (01:14:18)
And so the main negative, um, side of her father, the shadow side of her father now becomes her inner tyrant. It becomes the part of her. That's trying to change her and heal her in the dream. Right. And so when you're working with people that, you know, it's always, um, interesting to just first explore how that perhaps is an interject, how that is a part of you. Um, and it, it just depends on the person really, cause I'm like, well, you're super intuitive. So maybe, maybe it is part of Jeff that you're like noticing. Um, and that's the case, but whenever you're working with dreams, um, especially when you're working with somebody else and I'm like throwing out these, like, let's just call it, um, it's important for the dreamer to feel as if it clicks or it fits like, it's never, it's not right. If I say something and you're like, yeah, no, like that just doesn't feel right. But then oftentimes if you circle around the dream and try not to pin it down, you'll stumble upon something. That's like, yes. Yeah. Like that, you're like, Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: (01:15:40)
You're totally paying attention to those little cues is so clutch, right? Like that, that guttural aha. [inaudible] feeling that sound totally. It's, it's a different language. It's a light language.
Speaker 2: (01:15:55)
Yes.
Speaker 1: (01:15:57)
So, um, what does doing all of this work? Just like, bring it out of the work now and like into Danielle, as a human, what is exploring all of this for the last several years in your whole life? What is it telling you about your belief around the human experience and like just spirituality? Like what are you believing now more and more as you're doing this work?
Speaker 2: (01:16:22)
Hmm, interesting. I told my analysts yesterday, in fact that, um, I feel like I've been waiting my whole life to do this type of work and he's like, oh, so it's deeply meaningful to, you know, I was like, yeah, it's incredibly meaningful to me. And for me in particular, I feel like the image that, um, I'm a Harry Potter nerd and I just like watch Harry Potter on repeat, um, there's something in that. Right. I feel like there's something about my soul in particular that has felt very orphaned this whole, this whole lifetime, for me, just feeling like I didn't really have a home. And as I continue to like, um, indeed with the image and the psyche, it feels like I'm like coming home and I don't know what that means. I have no idea what that means at all, but it feels important and it feels, um, it feels like the most important thing I can be doing right now.
Speaker 2: (01:17:37)
And I'm not really sure what I believe. I think the more I get into this work, the less, I believe anything, but I do believe that the psyche is real. Um, I do believe that there is hours within us that influence us that are greater than we could possibly know. And the best thing we could do is try to get to know them because we can see collectively what's playing out when we don't. That's a really, that's a really great setup for tyranny. Um, and you know, just like the opium of the masses, you know, that kind of saying, it's like, well, that's what happens when you just blindly walk through life unaware of the forces that are greater than you. So I do believe there's power and they're not,
Speaker 1: (01:18:33)
I resonate so much with what you're talking about here. As you're talking, writing down these little notes, so I don't forget, I never get to them. But one of the things, one of the things that came up was this, um, this new season that we're getting into astrologically where the north and south node are changing its placement in the world. And while we're coming out of this time of Gemini, which was, is really focused on innovation and lots of change, um, viruses are even incorporated in that we're moving into tourists in 2022. And, um, one of the huge aspects of that is a call to get more in touch with your physical body, to your sensations. So all of this work in some level is going to be important for everyone. We need to come back home and next year and beyond this peer-to-peer awakening concept, you know, that, that we're here to break our own chains of ancestral patterns and that we can help other people do that just by being better ourselves and to show up in our, like our holistic self and in our vulnerability to share some of the stories like we shared today.
Speaker 1: (01:19:45)
Um, because I really do think that the wounded healer is in all of us, like all of these archetypes of the wounded healers coming up a lot for me right now. And just this, I mean like that is your archetype, but astrologically you're like basically Kyron in a and a girl suit and in a woman's, uh, facade. Um, but like, yeah, doing this work, the more people that I talk to that are actively healing parts of themselves, the more they're being called to be of service to others, whatever that looks like. And that doesn't mean you need to be a doctor or a life coach, you know, it's like, yeah, it's such a great feeling. That's why I'm feeling more and more too about spirituality and beliefs is that this concept of, to know thyself is like really the greatest thing that we can do here, because it inevitably leads to understanding how you fit into the system. And if more people can figure out how they fit in, in a higher consciousness kind of way, um, everything else will figure itself out. It'll just be natural. Yeah.
Speaker 2: (01:20:52)
And also I think like when you're quote unquote, knowing myself, realizing that you have no idea about myself fully, like we've, don't have room for, uh, recently Rick and I, um, I'm like really inclusive of unknown at this point in my life. And I'm like, yeah, we don't know that. Um, so whenever I find myself like being a no at all, I'm like, okay, well I'm not being hashtagged sent inclusive. So like, that's my thing right now is this inclusive. So I'm like, okay, well and scent unknown mystery. It's, it's all has a space. So checking myself when it's not inclusive,
Speaker 1: (01:21:41)
That's a real hot hashtag, um, speaking of Harry Potter, bring it back there. So have you listened to the audio books with Stephen Fry?
Speaker 2: (01:21:51)
Oh yeah. Okay. Oh,
Speaker 1: (01:21:53)
So, so good. I just downloaded mythos that he, I think he actually wrote it. I'm not sure, but it's all about myths and he obviously does the audio book. And if you haven't listened to it, girl, you're going to love it. It's my new nighttime sleepy time. Listen, he
Speaker 2: (01:22:09)
Has, and a great voice,
Speaker 1: (01:22:12)
So good. So to bring it away from Harry Potter, reluctantly, um, Danielle and I, and Jennifer McMaster are going to be hosting a year long retreat. It's a virtual retreat and it's a membership style. So very accessible. We wanted to make sure that this is something that could run in the background of our lives because as we were mentioning shadow work is something that is a patient process. It's a gentle process and it's best done in community so that you can process on your own in whatever way that you want, but you always have that grounded and safe place to do that.
Speaker 2: (01:22:49)
Yeah. So if you were feeling called to it, start to engage in some of this work, um, something that I'm really adamant about. Um, it's a, I guess a principle or theory of games Hillman, who is the creator of archetypal psychology. He talks about reflective consciousness versus creative consciousness. This is something that I'm actually going to expand upon in the collective. Um, and you know, reflective consciousness is the consciousness that comes from just reflecting on what is right. And just taking those, um, ideas right. And creating different framework around them. Creative consciousness is a little bit different because it requires active engagement in, in that process. And it's almost like a alchemical process where it's like, you know, if, if you know anything about alchemy, these alchemists would be in the lab, um, working with these like really potent materials for hours and days and years to try to come to the philosopher's stone.
Speaker 2: (01:24:04)
Right? And so I think the greatest goal of us creating this yearlong membership is create this vessel where people who are interested in this, um, can't necessarily afford a life coach, right? And they don't want to pay thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars, but want a community who is really a community of seekers of deeper understanding. I think our true goal is really to community where people can land in that, um, and engage in them actively, right. And not sit back and passively watch whatever is happening in our modern times, just pass by. Like, I think it is a really important time for humans to start advocating for not only their individual soul, but how their soul affects the collective. Um, and we can't be caught up in that kind of mass unconsciousness that playing itself out. Like we, I don't know, I can't speak for you Jess, but I'm just feeling so called to create this community because it, this is so important beyond important and make it in a way that accessible and engaging and on and not like, oh God, I've got to do shadow work, but like make it creative. Like, I don't know. I'm so excited. Yeah.
Speaker 1: (01:25:40)
That was really well said. October, November, December, all of 2022 is arguably one of the most important years of our lifetimes, especially as grown adults who can make the changes in our lives that we want to, if we, if we're not aligned with where we're at right now, and we're not aligned with how things are going, you know, just things in general. So if you're being called to this, check out our website at transformation, collective.org, I'll have a link to that in the show notes. And if you'd like to learn more about Danielle and work with her on a one-on-one basis, or she also has a really, really cool small group programs too. I think you do one-on-ones with dream trainings specifically as well. Right. Where can people find you?
Speaker 2: (01:26:22)
Yeah, I've just had my website, Dr. Danielle mcginnis.com. You can find me on Instagram at Dr. Danielle McGinnis. Um, yeah. And I think everything that I've talked about today as included in, you know, the work that I do individually with one-on-one and I find that, you know, like people who work in groups, I think it's great to do work in groups and work individually. They both have their place. Um, so, you know, based on where you're at in your life, I invite you to explore either all, both whatever works for you, but I just want to thank you, Jess, for allowing space, for me to muse about things, stumble my way through like deciphering and decoding. That's weird language of soul and psyche. So I just really appreciate the time.
Speaker 1: (01:27:14)
Thank you. And you did such a good job. I mean, we're defining unconscious material. I mean, just that's indefinable. So there's a built-in challenge there already. And I think you, I know you did amazing. Um, if you guys liked this episode, let us know, hit us up on Instagram. You can find me at Jessica D Potsie underscore and, um, yeah, just reach out. We're always excited to chat with like minded people. All right. D I love you. We'll talk again soon.